I want to leave this up as a reference, but I may take it down if people start being able to identify the other person I'm talking about- I may have regrets and resent the way I was treated, but I'm not a fucking asshole. Don't look for her, don't look for revenge, don't be a fucking asshole.
Intro
I've recently escaped from this situation and am still coming to grasps with it. Here's the basic rundown:
Eight years ago, my family sent me to Thailand for a short term mission trip. Two years after this, I came home for a month and met a Thai girl online: when I went back, we hooked up and kind of hit it off.
To cut a long story short, she had baggage: so we got STD tests together and both came out clean. Then, after much drama, she got pregnant with the first of our two children, and prenatal screening confirmed that she was HIV positive. I got tested again (and multiple times since then) and have never had any kind of positive test result. The same is true for both of our kids.
The other important detail is that we started a business together, and through a combination of accumulating poverty, mental instability, and outside interference, we lost everything, and so the second half of the relationship was plagued by continuous poverty, where we became deeper and deeper in debt (mostly to suppliers for our business) and then things came apart. I was unable to obtain a visa because of the lack of money: all of us were unable to afford basic medical care in one of the cheapest places in the world to get this.
Beginning two years ago, we had so little money that I began stealing food from supermarkets to make sure we'd have enough to eat. I became quite good at this, and eventually worked my way up from stealing candybars to stealing diapers, and baby formula- large bulky high-risk items- as well as staple foods, such as bags of rice.
I was never caught. I also made an effort to not steal things that would hurt people- I never stole from small mom-and-pop stores, only from large well-established retail chains that could withstand the losses.
Approximately 10 months ago {Edit 11/15: this refers to approximately March 2013}, I caught my fiance (as I thought of her) attempting to have an affair. This, combined with the intermittent physical abuse she targeted me with (I wouldn't hit her: she was basically able to get away with anything, to the point of beating me with sticks, destroying all my possessions, etc), was just too much to bear- and after a month or two of denial, I began taking steps to get myself and my kids out of the country.
I can't make a diagnosis, but I very strongly suspect that the woman I had been living with has borderline personality disorder- a condition where emotions are experienced so intensely that they distort rational perception of the world- and that this condition was present for the entire time that we were together, and that it was exacerbated by our on-going situation.
So, I think that's the big picture. AMA.
How'd you manage to get back to the US with your kids?
Eight years ago, my family sent me to Thailand for a short term mission trip. Two years after this, I came home for a month and met a Thai girl online: when I went back, we hooked up and kind of hit it off.
To cut a long story short, she had baggage: so we got STD tests together and both came out clean. Then, after much drama, she got pregnant with the first of our two children, and prenatal screening confirmed that she was HIV positive. I got tested again (and multiple times since then) and have never had any kind of positive test result. The same is true for both of our kids.
The other important detail is that we started a business together, and through a combination of accumulating poverty, mental instability, and outside interference, we lost everything, and so the second half of the relationship was plagued by continuous poverty, where we became deeper and deeper in debt (mostly to suppliers for our business) and then things came apart. I was unable to obtain a visa because of the lack of money: all of us were unable to afford basic medical care in one of the cheapest places in the world to get this.
Beginning two years ago, we had so little money that I began stealing food from supermarkets to make sure we'd have enough to eat. I became quite good at this, and eventually worked my way up from stealing candybars to stealing diapers, and baby formula- large bulky high-risk items- as well as staple foods, such as bags of rice.
I was never caught. I also made an effort to not steal things that would hurt people- I never stole from small mom-and-pop stores, only from large well-established retail chains that could withstand the losses.
Approximately 10 months ago {Edit 11/15: this refers to approximately March 2013}, I caught my fiance (as I thought of her) attempting to have an affair. This, combined with the intermittent physical abuse she targeted me with (I wouldn't hit her: she was basically able to get away with anything, to the point of beating me with sticks, destroying all my possessions, etc), was just too much to bear- and after a month or two of denial, I began taking steps to get myself and my kids out of the country.
I can't make a diagnosis, but I very strongly suspect that the woman I had been living with has borderline personality disorder- a condition where emotions are experienced so intensely that they distort rational perception of the world- and that this condition was present for the entire time that we were together, and that it was exacerbated by our on-going situation.
So, I think that's the big picture. AMA.
Questions and Responses
How'd you manage to get back to the US with your kids?
My
family here bought tickets and paid for the paperwork to be done
(getting kids citizenship and passports, paying my visa fine, that kind
of thing).
EDIT
I should add that most American consulates and embassies around the world offer a 'repatriation' service, where they'll get you out of whatever country you are stranded in, to a major US city (Boston on the east coast, LA on the west, iirc), but this isn't free- you have to pay them back later- and I was less sure about being able to get my kids out with this as well, because even though they technically qualified for citizenship, we'd never applied for it for them, because we never had the extra money, and so family was the first choice- and I'm incredibly grateful for their support.
Did you and your kids leave without your wife knowing?
EDIT
I should add that most American consulates and embassies around the world offer a 'repatriation' service, where they'll get you out of whatever country you are stranded in, to a major US city (Boston on the east coast, LA on the west, iirc), but this isn't free- you have to pay them back later- and I was less sure about being able to get my kids out with this as well, because even though they technically qualified for citizenship, we'd never applied for it for them, because we never had the extra money, and so family was the first choice- and I'm incredibly grateful for their support.
Did you and your kids leave without your wife knowing?
No,
we had to get her consent on some of the documents in order for them to
be able to travel with just me (as opposed to travelling with both me
and my wife/fiance/whatever). So she was on board, on the basis that we
would return to Thailand after just under a year.
After arriving here, she began accusing me of kidnapping the kids- where my whole idea from the beginning had been joint custody (edit: I have documents that can also show this is the case, signed by her and legally notarized. Kidnapping was never an option, joint custody was)- and when I responded to this, she began sending death threats for me and my family here in the US, saying things like "I will hunt you down" and "If I can't win, nobody can win!". She'd made death threats in person in the past, but this was a first for having it in writing, and so I promptly reported this to the US Consulate where she was apparently applying for a visa.
There was a brief period following this where we were in contact, but I ended that contact and told her to leave us all alone. She was contacting anybody she could find to try and get them to tell her where we were (which she knew already)- including work associates for my father's business and a somewhat famous family friend.
After arriving here, she began accusing me of kidnapping the kids- where my whole idea from the beginning had been joint custody (edit: I have documents that can also show this is the case, signed by her and legally notarized. Kidnapping was never an option, joint custody was)- and when I responded to this, she began sending death threats for me and my family here in the US, saying things like "I will hunt you down" and "If I can't win, nobody can win!". She'd made death threats in person in the past, but this was a first for having it in writing, and so I promptly reported this to the US Consulate where she was apparently applying for a visa.
There was a brief period following this where we were in contact, but I ended that contact and told her to leave us all alone. She was contacting anybody she could find to try and get them to tell her where we were (which she knew already)- including work associates for my father's business and a somewhat famous family friend.
How did your family feel about you moving to Thailand at the time?
Well
they originally sent me there as a kind of 'learning punishment' for
being an unruly teenager. I'd gotten drunk underage- the first time I'd
ever been drunk- and I woke up in a hospital, still wasted, and so my
family basically gave me a few options, one of which was going to
Thailand short term to teach English and so on.
So I went over there the first time (late 2005) to do that and just loved it. The cost of life is so low that it seems ridiculous, I rented a small apartment for about 40 bucks (USD) per month, I spent my time learning languages and teaching English, and at night I'd meet up with international friends for drinks. It was genuinely the best time of my life, at least thus far.
and after two years of this, I came home and had a vacation, saw my friends and family, and then went back to continue it, only to find myself in a pretty bad relationship that always seemed like it was just about to get enough better to make it all worthwhile- and it never did.
So I'm bitter about some of this, I think. But I'm not resentful about going to Thailand, and it was such an obvious improvement over the massive time-wasting I was doing in the US at the time that everybody recognized it as a good thing. All else aside, I speak Thai fluently now, I can get around in Laotian and Cambodian Khmer, I can perform basic social niceties in a half dozen tribal languages from the region- including Hmong, which is actually a substantial minority asian group in the US- and I can understand conversational dutch and german. I learned web development and programming while I was over there. I made real, measurable positive impacts in the lives of some of the people I knew there.
it's just that being there was one of the things that made this terrible situation possible. It wasn't just that I was there, in the same way that it wasn't just that I had to be human- these are anthropic, necessary to the condition. But it was kind of a perfect storm that happened while I was there, that could have ultimately happened anywhere.
I've only been to Thailand once, but it's the LAST place I'd send my unruly kid to.
well, their intention of getting me to function was successful, until the bad relationship thing- and bad relationships can happen anywhere.
That's like saying "traffic accidents can happen anywhere", and then proceeding to cross a 10-lane highway blindfolded.
For a western guy, Thailand carries 10x the risk of a bad relationship compared to most of the West... for one, it's impossible to read Thai people without having stayed there for many years, and women interested in Farang, although plentiful, are on average not the cream of the crop either -- most are scarred by past relationship issues with Thai guys (and some are their own fault, despite what they say!), or just can't get a decent Thai guy interested. Not all, of course.
My relationship, while bad, wasn't bad in the typical ways that you hear about there.
So I went over there the first time (late 2005) to do that and just loved it. The cost of life is so low that it seems ridiculous, I rented a small apartment for about 40 bucks (USD) per month, I spent my time learning languages and teaching English, and at night I'd meet up with international friends for drinks. It was genuinely the best time of my life, at least thus far.
and after two years of this, I came home and had a vacation, saw my friends and family, and then went back to continue it, only to find myself in a pretty bad relationship that always seemed like it was just about to get enough better to make it all worthwhile- and it never did.
So I'm bitter about some of this, I think. But I'm not resentful about going to Thailand, and it was such an obvious improvement over the massive time-wasting I was doing in the US at the time that everybody recognized it as a good thing. All else aside, I speak Thai fluently now, I can get around in Laotian and Cambodian Khmer, I can perform basic social niceties in a half dozen tribal languages from the region- including Hmong, which is actually a substantial minority asian group in the US- and I can understand conversational dutch and german. I learned web development and programming while I was over there. I made real, measurable positive impacts in the lives of some of the people I knew there.
it's just that being there was one of the things that made this terrible situation possible. It wasn't just that I was there, in the same way that it wasn't just that I had to be human- these are anthropic, necessary to the condition. But it was kind of a perfect storm that happened while I was there, that could have ultimately happened anywhere.
I've only been to Thailand once, but it's the LAST place I'd send my unruly kid to.
well, their intention of getting me to function was successful, until the bad relationship thing- and bad relationships can happen anywhere.
That's like saying "traffic accidents can happen anywhere", and then proceeding to cross a 10-lane highway blindfolded.
For a western guy, Thailand carries 10x the risk of a bad relationship compared to most of the West... for one, it's impossible to read Thai people without having stayed there for many years, and women interested in Farang, although plentiful, are on average not the cream of the crop either -- most are scarred by past relationship issues with Thai guys (and some are their own fault, despite what they say!), or just can't get a decent Thai guy interested. Not all, of course.
My relationship, while bad, wasn't bad in the typical ways that you hear about there.
- She was well educated. She spoke multiple languages in business environments, she attended one of the best colleges in Thailand and was on her last semester of one of the more difficult degrees, with a very good GPA.
- She was generally self-sufficient. I was not a 'cash cow' that she brought home to the countryside: her parents are divorced, and she's not on the best of terms with them for reasons I won't get into, but the consensus from both of us was "they might deserve some sin sod in 10 years, after we've got our shit together and they've been sufficiently chastised for their actions".
- She was from the city, not the countryside, and so this made her
behavior different, as well as her standards for everybody else's
behavior. Very atypical for the 'easy going' Thai people.
- She wasn't promiscuous- at least when we were together, she
simply didn't have the chance. I didn't either, despite constant
accusations by her. She wasn't ever a 'bar girl' of any variety, and
generally found it difficult to have conversations with them- she
considered them idiots and was very impatient with them. I don't think
she was wrong about them being idiots, honestly.
- Both of us spoke each other's languages going in. I apparently had an easy time learning Thai- most people complain endlessly about it, but I didn't find it terribly difficult or time-consuming, I just looked up or asked about what I wanted to be able to express and then practiced that and apparently got pretty good. She did the same thing, much more intensely, as a child- a kind of rebellion against her teachers saying what a bad student she was because her parents were divorced- and learned English, to an impressive degree, over the course of a summer. Not perfect, but about 95% of the way there, as opposed to maybe 70-80% of the way there for most Thai people in Thailand who speak 'fluen' English.
Being on poor terms with family (especially the mother) is a massive
red flag for a Thai (much more so than an American). Duty towards
parents is so central to Thai society and culture, that no matter how
big the parent's flaws might be, children are not allowed to break it
off. Of course, hindsight is 20/20 and it's impossible to know that
starting out in a new culture (I know folks who naively take it as
"good, no need to worry about the parents", when it's actually a strong
indicator other relationships will shatter in a worse way).
However, it's odd since she's so well-educated/self-sufficient and you were not the cash cow, that she did not manage to contribute some income to the family. Enough rice for the family of 4 is well within means of most Thais, even without much education or skills... and women are often the breadwinners here (e.g. all the street vendors).
However, it's odd since she's so well-educated/self-sufficient and you were not the cash cow, that she did not manage to contribute some income to the family. Enough rice for the family of 4 is well within means of most Thais, even without much education or skills... and women are often the breadwinners here (e.g. all the street vendors).
Well,
we started a business together, and for a while we were pretty
successful at it, but the biggest detriment to our cash was her trying
to buy things we couldn't afford. She spent 50,000 baht at a time
getting laptops, which she'd have to pawn in order to make payments on,
and then she'd lose it at the pawn shop after not making enough to buy
it back (pawning, by default, implies a secured loan less than the value
of a commodity used to secure the loan), but she'd pay interest to the
pawn shop so they'd hold it for her for the next month- and on and on,
stuff like this happened over and over. Notable purchases included a
second-hand car with a first-hand price (she didn't haggle, I was kicked
out of the house at the time and she came and picked me up from the
friends house I was crashing at in her new old car), a brand new iPad 2
when they came out, and a macbook pro. besides other computers, a
motorbike, etc.
I should also note that, while what you said about 'family obligations' isn't wrong, this isn't the complete picture- things in the big cities are substantially different from the countryside, and this is one of those things. It's not so much a failing of tradition as it is pragmatism for how different life in the city generally is, with a sprinkling of daily foreign cultural influence thrown in. Above and beyond this, the Ex's family was atypical in not being strictly Thai, but rather 2nd or 3rd generation Thai citizens on one half of the family and native thais on the other. I think you'd be surprised by the mix as well, it's one of the less common ones. But anyway, this did change some things as well.
I should also note that, while what you said about 'family obligations' isn't wrong, this isn't the complete picture- things in the big cities are substantially different from the countryside, and this is one of those things. It's not so much a failing of tradition as it is pragmatism for how different life in the city generally is, with a sprinkling of daily foreign cultural influence thrown in. Above and beyond this, the Ex's family was atypical in not being strictly Thai, but rather 2nd or 3rd generation Thai citizens on one half of the family and native thais on the other. I think you'd be surprised by the mix as well, it's one of the less common ones. But anyway, this did change some things as well.
The impulse purchases you're describing sound a lot like the mania of
bipolar disorder. I don't think she has borderline personality disorder.
I am extremely familiar with both of these mental illnesses, although
not with your wife, obviously. Bipolar disorder misdiagnosed as
something else can be a nightmare.
There
are more behavior patterns that I haven't really given a lot of time
to- they're one of the hundreds of detail that made this story what it
is, but which don't all need to be recounted to help you have an
understanding of it.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not writing you off, you may be right- I spent a long time seriously considering the possibility that she was manic depressive. I seriously asked whether I was a sociopath for not feeling the emotions she was feeling. But I came to the hypothesis of borderline because of a few critical elements.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not writing you off, you may be right- I spent a long time seriously considering the possibility that she was manic depressive. I seriously asked whether I was a sociopath for not feeling the emotions she was feeling. But I came to the hypothesis of borderline because of a few critical elements.
- Her consistent inability to accurately frame emotions in a
relative scale. A minor embarrassment in front of one of my friends
early on, for instance, caused feelings of intense shame and betrayal,
rather than a moment's embarrassment- and this was to the point that I
had to alienate this friend to a large degree (make contact on a yearly
basis rather than a daily basis) in order to keep her happy.
- Her consistent inability to see where she might have gotten
something wrong. Small arguments where she'd misunderstand something
were things she'd bring up every time we had a fight, on the basis that I
was such a dick and she had understood everything correctly and fuck
me.
- A lot of her behavior managed to keep me successfully in orbit
and never abandoning her. A lot of her paranoia involved unreasonable
things, like "people will kidnap our kids because they have white skin"
and so we were a bit cloistered, with her having longer stretches with
jobs (I didn't interfere; she always inevitably quit after a few months;
I was stuck watching the kids during these times, sometimes literally
locked in and unable to leave). So this looks more like the abandonment
prevention than mania to me.
- not much seemed taboo when she wanted to win an argument (more
control, less abandonment). The time (mentioned earlier) where I
thought she had given me a concussion, she was hitting me in the head
while I was holding our 2- or 3-month-old second child, and she was
accusing me of loving one and hating the other and so on. During
another argument of a similar nature, she grabbed this child- who was
maybe 8 months old at this point- by the hair, and began to shake them
violently, and the only time that I ever laid a hand on her was then- I
grabbed her and pushed her across the room onto the bed. (I was very
glad this had happened to her: but I was very upset that it had to be at
my hands.)
- She had abandonment issues during her childhood that are typical- but not diagnostic- of people with BPD. part of the reason sin sod ('bride tax', discussed elsewhere) wasn't an issue with her family is that she has vivid memories of her parents arguing over which of them had to take her, because both wanted her brother.
AHHHH, what you've described above. Let me break it down for you.
WHY didn't you teach English at some crappy illegal place for 400/hour? That could have given you enough baht for food.
This is one of the things I did, actually. Other things include outbound telesales, starting a startup (one of the things I'm doing now is re-building this, because I think the idea still has merit), acting as a tour guide and tour booking agent, and other things of this nature. I was even a TEFL course instructor. {edit 11/15: don't forget that we were also running our own business together during all of this, which provided enough to keep a roof over our heads, usually}
What's the best item you stolen?
I stole a couple of the Song of Fire and Ice books to read. I was very depressed and needed SOME kind of escape, and this is what I got. I eventually sold these- the only items I made money on.
{edit 11/15: I also stole Tim Ferriss's Four Hour Work Week, which I credit with giving me the mental tools I needed to address and escape from the situation, or at least inspiring me to try, and Neil Strauss's The Game, which gave me hope that I wasn't the crazy one and relationships weren't generally like this}
You are a white, English native speaker. You had NO reason to live in poverty in Thailand. Bad choices and a lack character made you a thief.
The issue wasn't finding work. The issue was keeping it with the crazy ex calling up every place I worked and causing drama. Every job I held in Thailand after I met her, she did this.
Why did it take you so long to bail?
Because at any point, bailing looked like it would have all been for nothing, and it's more appealing to give yourself the reassurance that you haven't wasted your time this way, and that this will be something you'll be stronger for having come through together.
And the attempted affair crossed the line, I see. Looking back, what are your lessons if any? do you think it was for nothing, or do you feel stronger for it, even though you did not make it together, or both?
What ethnicity are you?
- SHE'S THAI. You made her lose face in front of your friend. That is a HUGE no-no.
- SHE'S THAI. You shouldn't tell her she's wrong about anything. Do
you know about greng jai? Also, see the losing face thing above. I know
very few traditional Thais who can admit when they are wrong. It's
embarrassing. And a traditional Thai wouldn't tell someone that they are
wrong (even if they are).
- SHE'S THAI. Most traditional Thai women I know stick to their men
LIKE GLUE because they are so afraid they will cheat. Are the women
paranoid? Not really - men do cheat here, and they do it often. Other
women don't care that a man has a girlfriend and/or wife already. They.
Do. Not. Care. It's insane. How do I know this? I've been living in
Thailand more than four years. I've lived in both Chiang Mai and
Bangkok. I will say that BKK has much more modern and western-style
relationships. But the insane crazy jealousy is still an issue here.
- Not sure about this one, it could be a sign of being nuts. Or it
could be a sign of trying to control you. I've never dated a Thai woman,
being a woman myself, but I've heard EVERYONE (including Thai women
themselves!) say "all Thai women are crazy." So there's that.
- Uhhh... if I heard my parents say things like that, I'd have abandonment issues too. Don't think you can count that as evidence of Borderline.
Look, thanks, but I did live there for 8 years, and I did
speak the language- more fluently than perhaps 90-95% of expatriates
there. she was far from the only person I knew there, and far from the
first.
What you're saying isn't blatantly wrong. But you're attributing too much to culture- especially a culture that she somewhat rejected and operated in as an outsider, in many ways- and even if everything you say were right this would still not excuse her actions.
So, look, I really appreciate the input here, but this is something that I made a very serious effort to discover the nature of, and you seem to be writing off the examples of the kinds of behavior I gave as if they're simply cultural misunderstandings. Did that play some role? Certainly. Often. Without question.
But in this case, culture failed to provide sufficient explanation for the behavior. And it's more pressing, because, again, this was a culture that this person (rightly, I think) saw as overly dogmatic and less capable of allowing personal accomplishment or innovation and so on. I can't speak for her, but I can say that other people didn't have, eg, the problem I had- where she took statements out of context and never acknowledged correction- and this selective blindness, especially in a way that allows some kind of control of the relationship, is the kind of thing people with BPD leverage.
What religion was the basis for the mission trip?
What you're saying isn't blatantly wrong. But you're attributing too much to culture- especially a culture that she somewhat rejected and operated in as an outsider, in many ways- and even if everything you say were right this would still not excuse her actions.
So, look, I really appreciate the input here, but this is something that I made a very serious effort to discover the nature of, and you seem to be writing off the examples of the kinds of behavior I gave as if they're simply cultural misunderstandings. Did that play some role? Certainly. Often. Without question.
But in this case, culture failed to provide sufficient explanation for the behavior. And it's more pressing, because, again, this was a culture that this person (rightly, I think) saw as overly dogmatic and less capable of allowing personal accomplishment or innovation and so on. I can't speak for her, but I can say that other people didn't have, eg, the problem I had- where she took statements out of context and never acknowledged correction- and this selective blindness, especially in a way that allows some kind of control of the relationship, is the kind of thing people with BPD leverage.
What religion was the basis for the mission trip?
Christian. (edit
for clarification: I was an agnostic atheist when I went, my family was
unaware of my lack of faith, and I didn't see it as a barrier to going
somewhere exotic and doing good) I converted to Christianity
shortly after moving to Thailand in '05 because of something I call
"Losing Pascal's Wager", I studied the Bible in a theological seminary
there- with genuine experts, who I still admire- but became atheist
again when it became apparent that whether I liked it or not, the Bible
didn't answer important questions, answered them incorrectly, and
contradicted itself; and so my last 'quest' as a Christian was to set
out and find these bits for myself, to answer them, or at least know
what they were, because ignorance would be inexcusable.
So I'm a gnostic atheist now, basically, and I know pretty authoritatively that whether there is a god or not, it isn't the one in the Christian Bible.
So I'm a gnostic atheist now, basically, and I know pretty authoritatively that whether there is a god or not, it isn't the one in the Christian Bible.
WHY didn't you teach English at some crappy illegal place for 400/hour? That could have given you enough baht for food.
This is one of the things I did, actually. Other things include outbound telesales, starting a startup (one of the things I'm doing now is re-building this, because I think the idea still has merit), acting as a tour guide and tour booking agent, and other things of this nature. I was even a TEFL course instructor. {edit 11/15: don't forget that we were also running our own business together during all of this, which provided enough to keep a roof over our heads, usually}
What's the best item you stolen?
I stole a couple of the Song of Fire and Ice books to read. I was very depressed and needed SOME kind of escape, and this is what I got. I eventually sold these- the only items I made money on.
{edit 11/15: I also stole Tim Ferriss's Four Hour Work Week, which I credit with giving me the mental tools I needed to address and escape from the situation, or at least inspiring me to try, and Neil Strauss's The Game, which gave me hope that I wasn't the crazy one and relationships weren't generally like this}
You are a white, English native speaker. You had NO reason to live in poverty in Thailand. Bad choices and a lack character made you a thief.
The issue wasn't finding work. The issue was keeping it with the crazy ex calling up every place I worked and causing drama. Every job I held in Thailand after I met her, she did this.
Why did it take you so long to bail?
Because at any point, bailing looked like it would have all been for nothing, and it's more appealing to give yourself the reassurance that you haven't wasted your time this way, and that this will be something you'll be stronger for having come through together.
And the attempted affair crossed the line, I see. Looking back, what are your lessons if any? do you think it was for nothing, or do you feel stronger for it, even though you did not make it together, or both?
The lessons, so far;
So I kind of regard this as fertilizer to make me grow.
- get out of something terrible as soon as possible. When you are
alienating people you know and care about, and can't give a good
explanation why- especially when you can't explain why and are still
blaming yourself- make an objective assessment of your ability to meet
the needs of the other person, and their ability to meet yours.
- Telling yourself that 'everything happens for a reason' is
probably a symptom that there is no reason you can discern for the
things that are happening. Further, something happening for reasons you
can't discern is no excuse for you to be unreasonable.
- There is always a way out, there is always a way to survive, there is a solution to every puzzle, even if the solution is killing the puzzle maker. If there isn't, you'll never know, so there's no point in thinking there isn't.
So I kind of regard this as fertilizer to make me grow.
{...} I think it's an
important point to make that the affair... well, it wasn't so much that
it crossed the line as it was the tipping point of me realizing all the
signals I was getting from this other person meant that they were
absolutely no longer committed to having a relationship with me. The
affair itself is something that, if the relationship were on firm
ground, I'd at least have been open to the idea of working past.
I'm completely open, now, to at least having a serious discussion about open relationships or polyamory with whoever I am with next- even if I don't decide to engage in these in the future. And this is discussion was explicitly forbidden, even in the context of 'look at this thing, what do you think of it?', and it's kind of jarring to realize that this person- who is demanding to take up your whole world, in a lot of ways- is completely unwilling to give you the same consideration.
I think we even had a fight were this dichotomy came up- where I saw what we were going through as a big deal, something changing the course of both our lives, and to her it was just a breakup and not a huge deal.
So the realization that I was on the fucked end of a double standard was really the tipping point, more than the affair was.
I'm completely open, now, to at least having a serious discussion about open relationships or polyamory with whoever I am with next- even if I don't decide to engage in these in the future. And this is discussion was explicitly forbidden, even in the context of 'look at this thing, what do you think of it?', and it's kind of jarring to realize that this person- who is demanding to take up your whole world, in a lot of ways- is completely unwilling to give you the same consideration.
I think we even had a fight were this dichotomy came up- where I saw what we were going through as a big deal, something changing the course of both our lives, and to her it was just a breakup and not a huge deal.
So the realization that I was on the fucked end of a double standard was really the tipping point, more than the affair was.
- Favourite food?
- Best beverage?
My favorite food to steal?
Hmm. I stole packages of uncooked chicken a lot- usually breast meat, sometimes drumsticks, that kind of thing. I stole jars of sauces- things like peanut butter. I stole cheese, usually the cheap locally produced mozarella cheese that local pizza places used. I stole bags of flour and yeast.
As far as beverages go, by far the best bang-for-lack-of-buck was with flavoring syrups, such as Hales Blue Boy. With that, you could make your own drinks or flavor carbonated water so it would be a conventional soft drink, Thai people also use it on ice cream- a bit like chocolate syrup in the US. I also stole boxes of loose-leaf tea, which is cheaper and more common there than the tampon-things used in the US. Tea of all varieties is a locally produced commodity there, and so some of the really good stuff was very cheap, and thus 'fair game'.
Your story is fascinating. Do you have any photos from when you were really struggling? Or any photos at all, really.
Hmm. I stole packages of uncooked chicken a lot- usually breast meat, sometimes drumsticks, that kind of thing. I stole jars of sauces- things like peanut butter. I stole cheese, usually the cheap locally produced mozarella cheese that local pizza places used. I stole bags of flour and yeast.
As far as beverages go, by far the best bang-for-lack-of-buck was with flavoring syrups, such as Hales Blue Boy. With that, you could make your own drinks or flavor carbonated water so it would be a conventional soft drink, Thai people also use it on ice cream- a bit like chocolate syrup in the US. I also stole boxes of loose-leaf tea, which is cheaper and more common there than the tampon-things used in the US. Tea of all varieties is a locally produced commodity there, and so some of the really good stuff was very cheap, and thus 'fair game'.
Your story is fascinating. Do you have any photos from when you were really struggling? Or any photos at all, really.
I'm actually not sure. Right towards the end of this I got a cheap
tablet and took pictures of my kids with it, but- for the sake of their
privacy- this isn't the kind of thing I'd like to share. I may be able
to find some pictures of the house we lived in somewhere online, but I
want to restrict that to interior shots only, so that the location of
this can remain private- because I suspect my ex still lives there. As
bad as the stuff she did was, I really want to keep her out of this,
because mental illness is a terrible thing, and I really do pity her,
even though at the same time there is much I am unwilling to forgive.
What ethnicity are you?
I'm white. The ex described here is Thai- so my kids are half Thai.
Did that make it harder or easier to steel? I would think that you would stick out like a sore thumb.
Also, have you see the movie "Brokedown Palace" and, if so, did it ever weigh on your mind.
Also, have you see the movie "Brokedown Palace" and, if so, did it ever weigh on your mind.
I wondered why you were asking this!
and on some level, this made things easier- I was less of a 'default suspect'- but also much harder to get away with, if caught, because I would have 'no excuse' in the eyes of anybody who caught me. White people, in the stereotypical Thai mind, are never poor. We're too rich, look at us, how fat we are, and so on.
Since nobody is asking about this, I might as well mention, I was very very careful about how I went about this. Most of my stealing was done with technology: I'd hide something from view under a 'shopping list' in a notebook, and then I'd slip it into a laptop bag I always carried- when nobody was looking- from under the notebook. So even if you did see me, you would probably miss this unless you looked for it. and even then, I was very meticulous about how I did this- I never hit the same place so often as to arouse suspicion, I knew where the cameras were and what they could see or not see, I knew the aisles that people spent the least time in that I could slip something away most easily in, and I cataloged countermeasures- like RFID tags, security personnel, etc- so that I could avoid these by default, with little effort.
Some of what I did was also behavioral. For example, the only way I was ever able to steal a loaf of bread was by hiding it in a shopping bag from a competing chain of stores- hiding it in plain sight, with other (stolen) groceries as 'camouflage'. In one case, 'browsed' out of a store, into the adjacent store, conveniently 'forgetting' that I had an item from that store tucked in a store ad paper in my hand.
My point in saying all of this isn't to brag. These aren't things I'm proud of. But I want people to be able to know about this, so that the people who need to can prevent it. Or, you know, god forbid, somebody who needs to do this to survive can have some idea of how to start.
and on some level, this made things easier- I was less of a 'default suspect'- but also much harder to get away with, if caught, because I would have 'no excuse' in the eyes of anybody who caught me. White people, in the stereotypical Thai mind, are never poor. We're too rich, look at us, how fat we are, and so on.
Since nobody is asking about this, I might as well mention, I was very very careful about how I went about this. Most of my stealing was done with technology: I'd hide something from view under a 'shopping list' in a notebook, and then I'd slip it into a laptop bag I always carried- when nobody was looking- from under the notebook. So even if you did see me, you would probably miss this unless you looked for it. and even then, I was very meticulous about how I did this- I never hit the same place so often as to arouse suspicion, I knew where the cameras were and what they could see or not see, I knew the aisles that people spent the least time in that I could slip something away most easily in, and I cataloged countermeasures- like RFID tags, security personnel, etc- so that I could avoid these by default, with little effort.
Some of what I did was also behavioral. For example, the only way I was ever able to steal a loaf of bread was by hiding it in a shopping bag from a competing chain of stores- hiding it in plain sight, with other (stolen) groceries as 'camouflage'. In one case, 'browsed' out of a store, into the adjacent store, conveniently 'forgetting' that I had an item from that store tucked in a store ad paper in my hand.
My point in saying all of this isn't to brag. These aren't things I'm proud of. But I want people to be able to know about this, so that the people who need to can prevent it. Or, you know, god forbid, somebody who needs to do this to survive can have some idea of how to start.
You seem very cool and calculated with how you describe it all. Part of
the reason I brought up the movie is I'm wondering how it was effecting
you more on an emotional level. What was it like the first few times you
stole? What was going through your mind with regard to your family,
your personal well being, your feelings of self worth, guilt, fear,
anger, anxiety?
The
most prevalent thought was something along the lines of "Goddamnit, is
this all I'm worth?", and then I'd try to rationalize it, or think of
ways to come back and pay it all back.
I'm not a terribly emotional person, generally. I've got the full range of emotions that I experience, including plenty of regrets and things that I blame myself for. But I prize reason above these things, and being objective, and rational, and so on. So my description takes that color- a deliberately objective account, or as much as I can make it so.
And about the movie, no, I haven't seen it. The kinds of movies/media in general that played through my head... well, not much, to be honest. There is one scene from the show Prison Break, where the Hispanic guy (who's name I can't remember, and feel bad about forgetting because he's a good actor)- Scofield's cell mate? that guy!- the scene where he's just found out he's going to be a dad, and he 'robs' a store that he knows the owner of, and his friend reports the crime and he gets arrested, and he watches it all go to hell, and he loses everything, even though the owner of the store wouldn't have pressed charges. That really weighed heavily on my mind.
I also didn't take any risks if I was getting freaked out, which did happen numerous times. It's not an easy thing to break an unspoken social contract with your entire species, and that's kind of what it felt like. Like "this is bad for all of us, and I'm just rationalizing it so my own selfish genes can carry on, but that doesn't stop me from recognizing this is bad for me, too".
So it's kind of a shitty prospect. I don't know if it feels different stealing other things, if maybe bank robbers get these feelings or whatever. I suspect they don't- the payoff is too big, and the consequences too permanent- but I don't know.
Self worth- well, because of this, I began to break that into two categories: Your value and your potential. If you see someone homeless, on the streets, eating out of bins- that person has no value. They have no money, they have nothing invested in the economy we (most of us) live in- but this is a very different thing to saying that this person is 'worthless' or 'not valuable', because of potential. With the right investment, in the right individual, you can get somebody functioning, back up on their own two feet, supporting themselves: and this is valuable, but it isn't new value, you are unlocking the potential value that was trapped in an un-valuable configuration of a person's circumstances.
I'm not a terribly emotional person, generally. I've got the full range of emotions that I experience, including plenty of regrets and things that I blame myself for. But I prize reason above these things, and being objective, and rational, and so on. So my description takes that color- a deliberately objective account, or as much as I can make it so.
And about the movie, no, I haven't seen it. The kinds of movies/media in general that played through my head... well, not much, to be honest. There is one scene from the show Prison Break, where the Hispanic guy (who's name I can't remember, and feel bad about forgetting because he's a good actor)- Scofield's cell mate? that guy!- the scene where he's just found out he's going to be a dad, and he 'robs' a store that he knows the owner of, and his friend reports the crime and he gets arrested, and he watches it all go to hell, and he loses everything, even though the owner of the store wouldn't have pressed charges. That really weighed heavily on my mind.
I also didn't take any risks if I was getting freaked out, which did happen numerous times. It's not an easy thing to break an unspoken social contract with your entire species, and that's kind of what it felt like. Like "this is bad for all of us, and I'm just rationalizing it so my own selfish genes can carry on, but that doesn't stop me from recognizing this is bad for me, too".
So it's kind of a shitty prospect. I don't know if it feels different stealing other things, if maybe bank robbers get these feelings or whatever. I suspect they don't- the payoff is too big, and the consequences too permanent- but I don't know.
Self worth- well, because of this, I began to break that into two categories: Your value and your potential. If you see someone homeless, on the streets, eating out of bins- that person has no value. They have no money, they have nothing invested in the economy we (most of us) live in- but this is a very different thing to saying that this person is 'worthless' or 'not valuable', because of potential. With the right investment, in the right individual, you can get somebody functioning, back up on their own two feet, supporting themselves: and this is valuable, but it isn't new value, you are unlocking the potential value that was trapped in an un-valuable configuration of a person's circumstances.
You
seem like a very mentally strong person, I applaud you for that. You
don't seem to have any issues with depression (which I feel that I have
had in my life). It's a bit inspirational to me, thanks for sharing your
experiences.
Where do you think you'll go from here? More education? Entrepreneurial?
Where do you think you'll go from here? More education? Entrepreneurial?
I had massive
issues with depression. But depression is sometimes a systemic problem
in the brain, and sometimes the result of circumstances that are
genuinely depressing.
So I don't go too much into it, if I can, because it's depressing, but I attempted suicide many times. Sometimes, it just didn't work- and I have no idea why (methods such as intentional pill overdose). sometimes, I was interrupted, sometimes I stopped when I realized nobody would take care of the kids. But the yearning to be in different circumstances was so intense that I'd have done anything, basically. I'd have done myself up in drag to be a girl- or at least a drag queen- because that would have been a vacation from being the 'me' in these shitty fucking circumstances. I'd have crawled around outside naked with a collar on like a dog. I'd have done fucking anything to escape.
So I get the feelings of depression. I definitely had them. I also had terrible panic attacks, triggered mainly by things like not being able to meet the needs of my family, or by fear of the next fight with the ex, because she was actively making death threats and saying things like "If I could kill you now and get away with it I would" and so on. It was... well, it makes you numb, to start. and the feeling of realizing that this- this person saying these things- this is the person who you have loved more than any other, and now you have two kids who will not have a perfect family life-
These are things that you must be very reasonable when you think of- or at least this is the armor against this that I use. It's easy to think about the lost opportunities, about your kids growing up without both parents in the same house- but it is reasonable to want them to grow up with parents who are separate and who act like decent human beings. It's easy to want to love because you have loved before, but it is reasonable to not love someone who hates you. It's easy to write off mistakes for someone you love, and to forgive them. Less so - but more reasonable - for someone who hurt you on purpose, and who wants you dead.
From here, I don't really feel as if I have the opportunity for further education, at least in terms of going to school. This is a luxury I no longer have. So my whole focus right now is entrepreneurial. I am living with my family in the US, and they are running out of money, so my focus is getting myself stable and supported and my kids in a stable life, and then paying them back as I'm able to.
So I don't go too much into it, if I can, because it's depressing, but I attempted suicide many times. Sometimes, it just didn't work- and I have no idea why (methods such as intentional pill overdose). sometimes, I was interrupted, sometimes I stopped when I realized nobody would take care of the kids. But the yearning to be in different circumstances was so intense that I'd have done anything, basically. I'd have done myself up in drag to be a girl- or at least a drag queen- because that would have been a vacation from being the 'me' in these shitty fucking circumstances. I'd have crawled around outside naked with a collar on like a dog. I'd have done fucking anything to escape.
So I get the feelings of depression. I definitely had them. I also had terrible panic attacks, triggered mainly by things like not being able to meet the needs of my family, or by fear of the next fight with the ex, because she was actively making death threats and saying things like "If I could kill you now and get away with it I would" and so on. It was... well, it makes you numb, to start. and the feeling of realizing that this- this person saying these things- this is the person who you have loved more than any other, and now you have two kids who will not have a perfect family life-
These are things that you must be very reasonable when you think of- or at least this is the armor against this that I use. It's easy to think about the lost opportunities, about your kids growing up without both parents in the same house- but it is reasonable to want them to grow up with parents who are separate and who act like decent human beings. It's easy to want to love because you have loved before, but it is reasonable to not love someone who hates you. It's easy to write off mistakes for someone you love, and to forgive them. Less so - but more reasonable - for someone who hurt you on purpose, and who wants you dead.
From here, I don't really feel as if I have the opportunity for further education, at least in terms of going to school. This is a luxury I no longer have. So my whole focus right now is entrepreneurial. I am living with my family in the US, and they are running out of money, so my focus is getting myself stable and supported and my kids in a stable life, and then paying them back as I'm able to.
What type of business did you run? What do you mean by accumulating poverty and outside interference?
How old are your kids? How are they adjusting to living in this country and living without their mother? How was it like for them growing up in the conditions you described?
How did you steal something as large as a pack of diapers?
Not that I recognized as such until after. She beat me with a broom handle and left me dizzy enough that I stayed up that night in case I had a concussion. I got in a motorbike accident once and landed face-first in a muddy patch next to the road- she accused me of getting in the accident on purpose to fuck up her new motorbike we couldn't afford. I attempted suicide a couple of times, some of which I'm not sure how I survived. Made exit bags and things like that, I'd wake up with them around my head and a pounding headache, presumably I clawed them open after losing consciousness? I don't know. I hid this stuff from her as well, so I'd be surprised if she saved me.
It seems like its a miracle <you're> alive
That would be a terrible miracle.
What do you mean your stealing never hurt anybody? Aren't other customers people? You were affecting the prices everybody else paid!
It was a rationalization. And I don't think it was a bad one, as they go. I didn't get anybody fired. I didn't put anybody else in poverty. I did only what I had to do in order to put food on the table: I stole the cheapest version of anything I did steal, from the establishments that could withstand the losses.
So, look. I'm not proud of this. But if I were in this situation again, would I do whatever it took to survive again? You bet your ass I would. I watched my kids go hungry once, and there is no power that will make me inflict this on them again if there is something that can be done to end it, especially when your sole complaint is that something you can afford becomes something you pay more for, but can still afford.
Don't you think you should pay back the people you stole from?
Yes, of course. With interest, to reflect the period of time between their initial loss and their subsequent compensation.
This is an excellent question, by the way, that opens up the possibility of a conversation about exactly how you might go about paying back a company you spent a substantial amount of time directly stealing from.
What about walking up to the manager, explaining what you'd done, saying sorry, giving them a bag of cash, and walking away?
It's not a bad place to start, but my first thought with that is that the manager would pocket the cash and tell no one.
Considering what ground you're standing on at that hypothetical point in time I would question your reluctance to right your wrongs based on the presumption that someone else may do wrong.
have you never been desperate to eat? ever tried living out of bins? sometimes these are the only options people have, you can put whatever morals you like to it, but hitting megastores and large chain super markets is the most moral solution to being that desperate. walk a mile.
{Edit for clarification: this question wasn't directly addressed to me, but I answered it anyway}
How old are your kids? How are they adjusting to living in this country and living without their mother? How was it like for them growing up in the conditions you described?
The
business... well, it was a B2B supply business, mostly. We sold to end
customers sometimes, but our focus was on other businesses. In order
to preserve what anonymity I can, I don't want to say what industry we
were in.
The 'accumulating poverty' was largely caused by irrational 'self satisfying' behavior- she would get depressed, and then cheer herself up by buy something wildly out of our price range, like high-end electronics or, at the most extreme, a car- which we did need, but couldn't afford. All of these things were more highly priced than could be justified- the prices weren't bargained- and when we failed to make payments, they got pawned, or repo'd, and we spent money on trying to get them back, eventually failing- in a vicious cycle that would leave her depressed and seeking a way to cheer herself up.
The 'outside influences' is largely in reference to a single individual who we partnered with in our business, who wound up running up large debts- in our name- with our most important suppliers. This made us unable to fulfill orders, it made us late to fulfill them, and the suppliers- who were more familiar with him- took his side a couple times, until we demonstrated that we had paid and he had stolen the money. and even then, he was never kicked out of the picture.
My kids are 3 1/2 years old and 1 year old. They're both adjusting well. The conditions they were in before were not great- no climate control (no air con, no heater), just fans, We were constantly short of diapers and didn't have a working washing machine at the end (the one we had died), so my older kid was running around naked, peeing/pooping in a training potty, and I was cleaning him up with the hose (note: instead of toilet paper, thai toilets generally either have a bucket or a hose, you wipe with your hand and water), and same with my younger kid- no buttwipes- but they had diapers, at least. So this is an improvement, the older kid is now fully potty trained and has graduated to underwear from diapers. The younger has started walking, both of them are interacting socially and talking more, they've resumed normal development, maybe even exceeded it. Latest focus is getting older kid in preschool.
The 'accumulating poverty' was largely caused by irrational 'self satisfying' behavior- she would get depressed, and then cheer herself up by buy something wildly out of our price range, like high-end electronics or, at the most extreme, a car- which we did need, but couldn't afford. All of these things were more highly priced than could be justified- the prices weren't bargained- and when we failed to make payments, they got pawned, or repo'd, and we spent money on trying to get them back, eventually failing- in a vicious cycle that would leave her depressed and seeking a way to cheer herself up.
The 'outside influences' is largely in reference to a single individual who we partnered with in our business, who wound up running up large debts- in our name- with our most important suppliers. This made us unable to fulfill orders, it made us late to fulfill them, and the suppliers- who were more familiar with him- took his side a couple times, until we demonstrated that we had paid and he had stolen the money. and even then, he was never kicked out of the picture.
My kids are 3 1/2 years old and 1 year old. They're both adjusting well. The conditions they were in before were not great- no climate control (no air con, no heater), just fans, We were constantly short of diapers and didn't have a working washing machine at the end (the one we had died), so my older kid was running around naked, peeing/pooping in a training potty, and I was cleaning him up with the hose (note: instead of toilet paper, thai toilets generally either have a bucket or a hose, you wipe with your hand and water), and same with my younger kid- no buttwipes- but they had diapers, at least. So this is an improvement, the older kid is now fully potty trained and has graduated to underwear from diapers. The younger has started walking, both of them are interacting socially and talking more, they've resumed normal development, maybe even exceeded it. Latest focus is getting older kid in preschool.
How did you steal something as large as a pack of diapers?
I
would keep it out of view under another item- normally a notebook or
sketchbook where I had a 'shopping list' written down- and I would slip
things from here into a laptop bag I carried. The sketchbooks were
about 10" square, and the laptop is something like 16" x 22" x 4", so
there's a decent amount of room in there.
The diaper packs, by the way, were all the smallest number of diapers, and I got these from convenience stores, like 711 and Tesco Minimart, so there would be something like 5-10 diapers in a pack.
Did you have any near death experiences?
The diaper packs, by the way, were all the smallest number of diapers, and I got these from convenience stores, like 711 and Tesco Minimart, so there would be something like 5-10 diapers in a pack.
Did you have any near death experiences?
Not that I recognized as such until after. She beat me with a broom handle and left me dizzy enough that I stayed up that night in case I had a concussion. I got in a motorbike accident once and landed face-first in a muddy patch next to the road- she accused me of getting in the accident on purpose to fuck up her new motorbike we couldn't afford. I attempted suicide a couple of times, some of which I'm not sure how I survived. Made exit bags and things like that, I'd wake up with them around my head and a pounding headache, presumably I clawed them open after losing consciousness? I don't know. I hid this stuff from her as well, so I'd be surprised if she saved me.
It seems like its a miracle <you're> alive
That would be a terrible miracle.
What do you mean your stealing never hurt anybody? Aren't other customers people? You were affecting the prices everybody else paid!
It was a rationalization. And I don't think it was a bad one, as they go. I didn't get anybody fired. I didn't put anybody else in poverty. I did only what I had to do in order to put food on the table: I stole the cheapest version of anything I did steal, from the establishments that could withstand the losses.
So, look. I'm not proud of this. But if I were in this situation again, would I do whatever it took to survive again? You bet your ass I would. I watched my kids go hungry once, and there is no power that will make me inflict this on them again if there is something that can be done to end it, especially when your sole complaint is that something you can afford becomes something you pay more for, but can still afford.
Don't you think you should pay back the people you stole from?
Yes, of course. With interest, to reflect the period of time between their initial loss and their subsequent compensation.
This is an excellent question, by the way, that opens up the possibility of a conversation about exactly how you might go about paying back a company you spent a substantial amount of time directly stealing from.
What about walking up to the manager, explaining what you'd done, saying sorry, giving them a bag of cash, and walking away?
It's not a bad place to start, but my first thought with that is that the manager would pocket the cash and tell no one.
Considering what ground you're standing on at that hypothetical point in time I would question your reluctance to right your wrongs based on the presumption that someone else may do wrong.
Let me see if I've got this right... because I stole to feed my children, I think the manager would steal?
Well... yes and no. What's more important to me is that I have a better insight, now, into when there is an opportunity to steal with nobody knowing- because this is what I actively did- and this would be creating that opportunity for the manager, with low risk, and with high reward.
Well... yes and no. What's more important to me is that I have a better insight, now, into when there is an opportunity to steal with nobody knowing- because this is what I actively did- and this would be creating that opportunity for the manager, with low risk, and with high reward.
have you never been desperate to eat? ever tried living out of bins? sometimes these are the only options people have, you can put whatever morals you like to it, but hitting megastores and large chain super markets is the most moral solution to being that desperate. walk a mile.
{Edit for clarification: this question wasn't directly addressed to me, but I answered it anyway}
There
were multiple periods of time- I'm not sure how many, but between 5 and
10- all over 2 days- where I went without food in the last year. the
longest of these was five days, during which I was fired from a
low-skill job (the ex contacted my employer at the time and told them I
was spending work time stalking her- which, to be fair, is how I had
caught her attempting to have an affair) and also kicked out of my house
by my ex for several days, amid accusations of having an affair (which I
didn't have, but which she absolutely has coming). The sum total of
the cash I had went to paying for a hotel to sleep in. The first day
after I was fired, I still brought home food for them- bought, not
stolen- but I had nothing for myself, so I spent what time I had
perusing help-wanted ads, writing business plans, watching evangelist
television, and having panic attacks about this being it, about never
getting out of this.
So, I don't think I'm on unsteady ground here. I got what free food I was able to. Sometimes friends helped, but the nature of my relationship with the ex alienated a lot of them, so I didn't have many places to turn. I also used what survivalist knowledge I had to get edible plants, vegetables, things like that, but most of this in thailand is deliberately cultivated, so that's stealing too in a lot of cases- so I didn't have a lot of that. And of course what money we did have got spent as frugally as possible- probably more frugally than most people here can imagine. Standard meals, for weeks at a time, would be rice + an egg, or rice porridge (which let us extend the life of a pot of rice rather than waiting for it to go bad) with cheap pickled cabbage in brine with chili peppers. We were able to get some fruit cheaply- mango trees grow everywhere in Thailand, as do banana trees, and so neighbors would sometimes give us mangoes and bananas- and so we were able to make do with this as well, sometimes.
So, I don't think I'm on unsteady ground here. I got what free food I was able to. Sometimes friends helped, but the nature of my relationship with the ex alienated a lot of them, so I didn't have many places to turn. I also used what survivalist knowledge I had to get edible plants, vegetables, things like that, but most of this in thailand is deliberately cultivated, so that's stealing too in a lot of cases- so I didn't have a lot of that. And of course what money we did have got spent as frugally as possible- probably more frugally than most people here can imagine. Standard meals, for weeks at a time, would be rice + an egg, or rice porridge (which let us extend the life of a pot of rice rather than waiting for it to go bad) with cheap pickled cabbage in brine with chili peppers. We were able to get some fruit cheaply- mango trees grow everywhere in Thailand, as do banana trees, and so neighbors would sometimes give us mangoes and bananas- and so we were able to make do with this as well, sometimes.
Other Questions from Other Places
He
says there was "baggage" that led him to getting STD testing early in
the relationship but later says she was "not promiscuous" and
"definitely not a bargirl" to the point of being "sexually very stuck up
and prudish". But, for some reason, she had fluent English, and also
spoke Japanese, and managed to catch HIV, somehow.
And she was definitely faithful but apparently caught it after they got together, as they both tested clean after the relationship started. There is a window period, but with current generation tests 95% of people will test positive if they have it within 4-6 weeks of infection.
The whole thing just doesn't really add up, unless she was a IV drug addict. I'm not sure he's giving us the full story.
<Deleted comment along lines of "Why did you stay with her when she got diagnosed as HIV+? You should have just left.">
And she was definitely faithful but apparently caught it after they got together, as they both tested clean after the relationship started. There is a window period, but with current generation tests 95% of people will test positive if they have it within 4-6 weeks of infection.
The whole thing just doesn't really add up, unless she was a IV drug addict. I'm not sure he's giving us the full story.
Well, the place to bring this up would have been the thread I started, but anyway, here's what I know.
- we both tested negative for HIV when we were first together. I saw her test results, she saw mine. She was worried about STD's because her ex had apparently been cheating on her with bargirls, etc. So that's a big part of what the baggage was; not trusting men in general because she'd been betrayed in the past.
- it is possible that she was infected at this time and seroconversion- the immune response where antibodies begin to be produced- had not yet happened.
- after this period, she spent a month or two out of town
concluding business and getting her things to move to where I was. This
is her biggest opportunity to have been infected sexually, but remember
that we were in constant contact during this time- talking online at
night, calls during the day- so this would have been something she'd
have had to work around to do that. and honestly, she had a full plate,
and didn't seem to waste any time, and if she'd have found someone
else, she could have just gone with them.
- relatively early on in our relationship, she was hospitalized
with Dengue fever, at a hospital with a horrible reputation for
neglectful incompetent treatment. During this hospital stay, she told
me that a nurse had injected something into her hand (where the IV's
were attached- they couldn't find the veins in her arms) with a needle
that looked like it had already been used. She was paranoid about it
being HIV, I calmed her down at the time and told her it was just
medicine (I think I was at home when this happened and visited her the
next morning, I was at the hospital some nights and at home some nights
during this). So, there does seem to be a possibility that she was
infected by this. It's also noteworthy that her recovery from dengue
was abnormally long, and that her symptoms during recovery neatly
coincide with the initial high-viral-load HIV infection, where you get
things like rashes, peeling skin, pneumonia, aching bones, and so on.
- It is absolutely possible that I'm just wrong and that she did have chances to cheat that I didn't know of, and that this is what she did. It's important to note, however, that she was in a new town and knew nobody, and she wasn't going out and meeting people. So I consider this unlikely because of reasons like this.
Fair enough, thanks for the reply.
I'd be very sceptical on the "infected by dirty needle" in a hospital possibility. Needle reuse just doesn't happen in Thai hospitals, even eight years ago. And even if it did, she'd still have been very unlucky- it would have to have come pretty much immediately from someone else with HIV (unlikely - prevalence is around 1.5%), the virus dies quickly in the air, and even then the risk of transmission is quite low for an individual incident- under 1%. So you are looking at what, around a 1 in 10,000 chance, (~1% of transmission * ~1% chance it came from a HIV+ patient) if a needle was reused which itself is unlikely. Junkies get it this way because they are already a high risk group, share needles immediately, and keep doing it repeatedly. Not so likely for a single reuse in a hospital - although I'm honestly sceptical that would have occurred in the first place.
That honestly sounds to me like an excuse from her as to how she might have got it, that didn't involve sex.
Can you be sure the results you saw were genuine? In fairness to your point that she might have seroconverted already, I believe the window period before a test would pick up infection was longer eight years ago.
I just wonder given what subsequently transpired with the cheating and the crazy, if you can really trust everything this girl told you.
To be honest I posted here as I didn't want to go clogging up your AMA insinuating that your partner was a bargirl.
I'd be very sceptical on the "infected by dirty needle" in a hospital possibility. Needle reuse just doesn't happen in Thai hospitals, even eight years ago. And even if it did, she'd still have been very unlucky- it would have to have come pretty much immediately from someone else with HIV (unlikely - prevalence is around 1.5%), the virus dies quickly in the air, and even then the risk of transmission is quite low for an individual incident- under 1%. So you are looking at what, around a 1 in 10,000 chance, (~1% of transmission * ~1% chance it came from a HIV+ patient) if a needle was reused which itself is unlikely. Junkies get it this way because they are already a high risk group, share needles immediately, and keep doing it repeatedly. Not so likely for a single reuse in a hospital - although I'm honestly sceptical that would have occurred in the first place.
That honestly sounds to me like an excuse from her as to how she might have got it, that didn't involve sex.
Can you be sure the results you saw were genuine? In fairness to your point that she might have seroconverted already, I believe the window period before a test would pick up infection was longer eight years ago.
I just wonder given what subsequently transpired with the cheating and the crazy, if you can really trust everything this girl told you.
To be honest I posted here as I didn't want to go clogging up your AMA insinuating that your partner was a bargirl.
The
crazy was constant, but was made worse by our situation. I really
think she had borderline personality disorder- but I'm not qualified to
diagnose her as this, this is only my hypothesis.
The 'dirty needle' thing was something that, from the description, sounds more like a deliberate infection: done at night, the nurse had tried not to wake her during it, it was a nurse that she described as acting jealous (keep the crazy in mind here: it saw jealousy everywhere), etc.
{Edit 11/15: I don't say, but I'm not sure I believe her story here either, but it remains as a possibility that I can't rule out, especially in light of the lack of other opportunities for infection}
So, I'm in a pretty good spot to make an assessment of whether she was cheating or not. I kinda suspect she might have done something at the beginning after we met but before we were committed, which I don't hold against her, but after that point I really don't think she had enough motivation or opportunity.
The 'dirty needle' thing was something that, from the description, sounds more like a deliberate infection: done at night, the nurse had tried not to wake her during it, it was a nurse that she described as acting jealous (keep the crazy in mind here: it saw jealousy everywhere), etc.
{Edit 11/15: I don't say, but I'm not sure I believe her story here either, but it remains as a possibility that I can't rule out, especially in light of the lack of other opportunities for infection}
So, I'm in a pretty good spot to make an assessment of whether she was cheating or not. I kinda suspect she might have done something at the beginning after we met but before we were committed, which I don't hold against her, but after that point I really don't think she had enough motivation or opportunity.
It's
an easy thing to suggest this, but it's harder to do in practice.
Remember, I'd already made such a commitment to this person that the fact that they had HIV was something I was happier dealing with than abandoning them to.
So you're not wrong. But for stupid unreasonable reasons, it wasn't that simple for me, and I suspect the unreasonable reasons are pretty common elsewhere too.
Remember, I'd already made such a commitment to this person that the fact that they had HIV was something I was happier dealing with than abandoning them to.
So you're not wrong. But for stupid unreasonable reasons, it wasn't that simple for me, and I suspect the unreasonable reasons are pretty common elsewhere too.
THE END
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